Should USMC Pistol be .45 Cal or 9mm? Let the Debate Begin!

"The M9 has been tested since the U.S. began reprisal operations (Operation Enduring Freedom or OEF) against the Taliban in Afghanistan right after 9/11. The M9 has been further tested in combat since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF) in 2003." Handguns are rarely used in the battlefields. Policemen used more handguns than the military. The .45 is better suited for situations where firepower is required. That said the 9mm is has been quite reliable its only that it lacks firepower. I think there's a need for organizations to evaluate their needs rather than the sort of guns required. Of course if a policeman is based in a crime prone cities then my suggestion is that they need a high calibre weapon with good stopping power. However, if a policeman or National Guardsman's duties are basically normal or that do not require a lot of handgun usage (in proportion to any assault firearms threat) then an ordinary calibre will suffice. The US Military requires a good handgun with good stopping power.
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my civilian experience with the .45 acp has not been as impressive as those of some who have posted here, and I regard the 9mm as A mighty leaky vessel to be placing ones trust in . My brother, an urban police officer became engaged in A firefight. The morbidly obese perp was hit 3 times with 9mm rounds and showed no reaction . When subdued , 2 of bullets fell out of the fat and were recovered from the tree lawn. Without A doubt , the .45 would have performed much better , but is still an erratic performer in the areas of penetration and performance. When shooting at 2 liter water filled bottles at 25 yards I was shocked to find rounds inside the bottle, i.e. , they had entered but failed to exit. My S&W .41 Mag , my model 29 firing .44 special caused actual explosion of the bottles at 25 and 50 yard ranges. Of course A 6 shooter today just won't hack it when your opponent is using A semi-auto with A 16 round capacity. Police officers died while using their speed loaders , hence the change to 9mm high capacity duty weapons. Why not 10mm or .40 cal.,I don't know . 9mm bullets , and not ball ammo , falling out of fat and having no effect on the bad guy is not A real confidence builder.
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As a retired law enforcement officer/trainer, many other CA police agencies, reviewed, tested and debated this same subject two-three plus decades back. I myself preferred the 45 as a back up or off duty carry. Political correctness entered the arena and some agency decision powers did not like the appearance of the cocked and locked or the hog iron 357s, 41-44s that were authorized. So liberal appearance versus conservative western practicality was their standard. The bean counters, tree huggers, posers and gentle glove leaders came into power sometime in the mid 80's-90's and turned CA law enforcement upside down where truth does not matter only political correct expediency and agency self esteem is what mattered. But back to the subject at hand, it is the transfer of energy to the target as in big game hunting sports is the important issue. The placement of the +P+ bullet into the center mass vitals with wound expansion and transfer of energy pounds per square inch into the targeted threat for stopping purposes with the hydrostatic shock causing remote traumatic brain injuries was an important consideration in the 9mm ammo. The hydrostatic shock waves transfered energy ripples through the body mass and proved the stopping value in many autopsies in center mass hits and brain trauma injuries with +P or better ammo. Thus as a defensive anti personnel weapon, the JHP 9mm +P or +P+ is a good stopping round in good solid 9mm sidearms. But the continuous use had shown the 9mm frames wearing out sooner than expected from the extra high pressures of the + P, +P+ ammo and continuous use. The bullet design is important because with 9mm military ball ammo the wound channel expansion is less than desirable stopping power compared to those law enforcement issued rounds in discussion. The sub sonic 9mm 147 grain round did not have the energy transfer shock waves but proved to be a good hole puncher going through several walls and going like the energizer bunny proved going to litigation was needed due to collateral damages to innocents oor wanna be innocents. It is a good round when used in a silencer. So with these considerations the 45 with almost .10 calibre larger hole causes much more wound channel damage than a 9mm standard ball, therefore the 45 should be the choice. If the jacketed flat nose or hollow points 115 grain +P+ was allowed, it makes sense to just switch the ammo, but probably is not an option due to political correct treaties or self inflicted shoot your toe off policies.
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Report Abuse   jason9mm@hotmail.com 08/10/2012 8:34:00 AM EDT You bring up a good point from a law enforcement perspective. Collateral damage. You also bring up an issue about modifying ammo. This clearly shows that these issues whether for pistols or combat rifles (different story), its not just the gun but the ammo. Capabilities of ammo and logistics thereof for everything involved from spare gun parts to training. There is a much bigger picture that does goes far beyond the trigger pullers and ultimately is decided by the non-trigger pullers....whether or not I or others like it.

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I used a Sig Sauer p-220 in 45 It never let me down
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There are two issues: First the ability of the chosen caliber to work effectively at "near" hand-to-hand combat range. The side-arm must work effectively (1 shot, one disabled opponent) at 10 to 30 feet. Period. Second: Ammunition capability. In WW-II my father had a .45 caliber side-arm and a submachine gun which also fired .45 caliber ammunition. Therefore, all he needed was .45 caliber ammunition. Does one therefore need special ammunition for the side-arm which no one else is using? That becomes a logistics nightmare. The appropriate side-arm for the military, is one that also uses ammunition that is common to another prevalent weapon that the military uses.
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Report Abuse   jason9mm@hotmail.com 08/10/2012 8:38:53 AM EDT I would like to respond on the 45 for both weapons comment. While there are a few 45 subguns out there, most are 9mm. This is for control reasons. With that said, there are new 45 subgun designs that are very controllable. This may be a good separate debate for later regarding local law enforcement or spec ops. However for general combat ops, the weapons are a pistol and rifle and that rifle is usually 5.56 or larger. The facts with that are two different types of ammo are required.

Report Abuse   mrtracy 08/09/2012 5:49:53 PM EDT When you say "no one else is using", as far as I know USA is the only country using .45 cal. Frankly, don't you think the .45 calibre out of the ark! Western Europe and Oceania all use 9mm and I have been using it for years without a problem. I get 17 9mm rounds in my Model 17 Glock and 12 in my compact model 26.

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My father was OSS during WWII. Dropped into Yugoslavia to support Chetniks, his main weapons were a .45 and an M1 Carbine.(Together with enough smarts to know when to use them.) More than a weapon of self-defense it turned out to be a recruiting tool as well. Men would come first to see the American who had dropped into their position but also to see his weapons. They were always awestruck by the .45.
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The crap about people who can not handle a .45 is bunk. All the have to do is practice and realize that if they don't they are dead. I can hit a 5 gal bucket 7 out of 7 at 100 yards with my .45 and it is a stock 1911. Look back in history and count the number of MOH winners who won the medal using the .45. No one I have heard got a MOH with a 9MM. With proper loads the .45 is truly a force to be reckoned with. I cut a coyote in half with mine at 15 yards and I mean in half. Was facing me head on and hit him in the neck. Everything below the backbone and aft of the neck was gone out his a hole. Speer Flying Ashtray stoked with Unique at about 975-1000fps.
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Report Abuse   jason9mm@hotmail.com 08/10/2012 8:40:49 AM EDT I see reloading speak. What about a different 9mm load like was mentioned by "factfinder" above? Or do you feel that the time and effort to make the 9mm "work" is best resolved by the 45?

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I agree with Zerofriction with this one. But not everyone is proficient with a .45, although they can be trained to become porficient. Given that, what caliber used by US military forces should be decided on known battlefield statisitics for how it performed against a determined enemy in battle, not lab results. The SPECOPS crowd know their lives depend on the weapons/caliber/gear that they used, that is why they CHOOSE to use that particular weapon/caliber/gear.
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Need to understnad why the .45 was created in the first place. As early as the 1890's the ARMY understood that the .38-caliber round (i.e. 9 mm) was significantly less effective than the .45 Colt yet the Calvary fielded the .38-caliber round and once again found out that against determined opponents, such as the warriors encountered in the Moro Rebellion of the Philippine–American War the .45 Colt was required. To be the ultimate COMBAT caliber it needs to be effective in as many situations as is possible. Time-and-again the .45 ACP has proven its worth in COMBAT. With the current technology of Polymer Pistols like the GLOCK that doublestack rounds coupled with the new bullets available today there is no reason to stay with the 9mm. As a last resort round in a self defense scenario at point blank range then 9mm pocket pistols are ok. But the .45 ACP still dominates in definitive wins. US Military go to the battlefield to dominate - the .45 ACP will help them do it.
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Report Abuse   jason9mm@hotmail.com 08/10/2012 8:45:44 AM EDT Good history lesson. I will add that the 38 revolver was the same 9mm diameter but the muzzle velocity was lower than the 9mm parabellum. (Just trying to make sure we dont degrade the 9mm any further than we have too) The results would have been the same especially in that time under those conditions. The 38 was ineffective and the 9mm would have been to. The only grace may have been the availability of additional rounds and semi-auto capability. One shot one drop is always the way to go. Good post Zerofriction. :)

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